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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:47 pm 
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I'm new here but will chime in. Forgive me if this has been hashed before. What about having a unit number x10? If the icon shows 10 men that equals 100 men?

I have Civil War Generals II on disc if you need me to see how that game handled anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:26 pm 
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My 2 cents:

I greatly prefer to have the smaller sized "squads", i.e., the 25-30 men per unit mentioned by Flash.
Using 150 man units may work well in other dedicated CW games, but here I think we need to keep them small.

J2D, I think we considered your idea at some point. Personally I didn't like the "multiple" idea, just too abstract.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:04 pm 
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The x10 stuff is a hold over from the SP III stuff where you were pushing around larger
formations a unit was 5 tanks not one sort of stuff. That game died a hard death since
it was just not as much fun as SP II

I would like not to follow on in that way with something that is just not going to be as
much fun to play.

Having more units to move around means more player involvement. If we stick with
the size we have now what were we going to do with the Indians. A whole tribe would
be 1 unit with a guy on a horse that everyone called Chief It's going to be really hard
to kill Custer and 7th Cav with 1 or 2 units.

Not to mention we will need a lot more Buffalo to make a proper herd. :maniac:

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:17 am 
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Unless it was intended to allow the Dismount Cav mounts to "double up" and have each horse carry
two men they need to have the carry capacity lowered. Not sure we want to provide too much
in the way of extra transport for players to abuse.

The guns look good as does the ammo for them.

So far that is all I can find that sticks out.


Would like to see just plan old wagons added in as well as some stores like food/water and
bales of cotton and barrels. Also wounded, pow's and of course slaves. Oh and trains and
stage coaches and of course Buffalo. And if your feeling bored and give me a very tiny fish
icon and a deer and bear icon I will take you out fishing or hunting in the woods. :chuckle:
Seriously...... I have it all worked out just need the icons to make Toys hunting and fishing
lodge.

I know you guys are still working on them but we might need to have access to some sort of
dug outs to hide in. Perhaps even one that has a very small icon so that it can be used in a
building to act as a root cellar to hide in and keep ma's rheumitize medicine.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Two more items to note

When testing a battle I let the computer play both sides to see what happened.
The big thing was the Mounts bolted and ran first thing (they are trucks )
Would changing them to APC help keep them from running?

Caissons also ran as did the ammo bearers. Guess they don't want to get shot at.


And I also question the use of the Elite Status on the Union Regulars.
This is giving the union troops a morale boost that is not completely warranted.
I can allow for that when setting up the moral in the Mech file but then that would
also effect the other units. Most times despite the lack of good equipment the CSA
troops often bettered the Union troops in regard to morale and fighting spirit. There
are no Elite troops for the CSA.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:38 pm 
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NotAToy wrote:
Most times despite the lack of good equipment the CSA
troops often bettered the Union troops in regard to morale and fighting spirit. There
are no Elite troops for the CSA.


That may have been true in the east, in some cases. But in the west, it was exactly the opposite. I may be generalizing it too broadly but Confederate troops west of the Mississippi did a lot worse than their counterparts in Lee's army. Again I may be generalizing, but I don't know of very many victories they won, other than isolated actions in Texas and Louisiana. Of course there was Stone's River and later Kennesaw Mountain..

Also there wasn't that big of a gap in equipment, as the Confederates took everything they could from dead Yankees. I remember reading where one Union artillerist complained 'there are more cannon bearing the US mark in the Reb army than in ours!'

I feel that there ought to be at least a few units in the CS OB at elite status, but how to do it? Specifically I'm thinking of the Texas Brigade, whom Lee considered his shock troops. What about the Stonewall Brigade? The problem is that these are unit-specific. Maybe some kind of 'Veteran' troops at elite status? I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Ok, the Dismount Cav transport horses I missed on...I should have reduced their Carry to that of the Dismount unit. It was raised for the previous version's larger crew size.
The Union Regular "elite" status was originally intended to reflect the fact that, of all the forces involved, they were the only ones with significant "combat training" at war's start. And, in light of discussions about lowering the base EXP and MOR numbers in the mech, I would find it hard to accept that the Regulars were the same as the rest of the troops...now, if the Rarity aspect worked better, I would set the Regulars to a rarity of 2, which would limit their availability (as was historically true; the majority of the Union forces were state-raised volunteer regiments). I might even do that anyhow, and recommend that this Pref be used.

And while Matt's correct about the Stonewall and Texas Brigades, there is no way to specify these as 'elite' short of building separate formations as such, which would then lead to the inevitable 4 Stonewalls on the field... :roll:

Now, since the CSA doesn't have any 'elite' units, nor does it have 'second-line' (as does the Union, with its Conscript formations), I could add a 'Veteran Rifleman' and 'Green Riflemen' formation in; these would have the same layout as the base Rifle Company/Regiment, but be coded for 'elite' and 'second-line'.

On the AI evacuating the Ammo and Mounts: All of these are actually Pack Animal classed, and the AI always removes as much of its non-combat units as it can during games. I've seen it happen in the regular WWII settting: put the AI in defense and it sends all its trucks off the map. Making them APC-types would fix that, at the expense of giving these units Wheel or Tracked movement rates; they would spend more MPs moving across country, and would be prevented from moving in certain terrain (bocage, for one). To compensate, we would have to increase the MP amounts, and then we would see these units hot-footing it down the roads at 40mph (like trucks do in the basic game). Not something I want to see...
It was due to this that I did not include ammo carriers in the AI force selections. Now, I have seen the AI use the mounts up to a point...usually after I shoot at them and the passengers dismount. Then the horses head for the rear...leaving the poor officers alone, afoot, and usually far in front of their men! :chuckle:

Same for the Caissons...the AI just doesn't know what to do with Ammo Carriers, so it runs them off the map ASAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Matt's right. I think we can find cases on both sides of the line that were either stinkers
or Elite. My current thinking here is we look at making the rifle units more or less the
equals of each other as far as morale and exp goes. And then adjust the forces by using
the Mobile HQ's and other units to boost the morale.

Now we also seem to have 2 sets of Rifle units now a 25 man unit and a 30 man units.
Rather then do that can we make some of them elite and some normal and some
2nd line. I know that is a pain in the *** but this is the Civil War and there are going
to be a ton of players who are going to drag out the books and build the forces they
want to play with based on real life units. I think we are going to see much more of
that with this mod then with the WW II crowd. The CW bunch tends to be a bit more
fanatical when it comes to demanding accuracy and getting things just right. So much
of it has been well documented. So many people have walked the actual ground.

I think we need to make the tools available to build the formations. And as before
accept that we can not fix stupid.

I think we can get the play balance to the point that with a Leader in the Area the units
nearby will have increased Rally abilities and that should allow them to carry the day
as far as the fight goes assuming that both sides are using similar rifle units.

It will then be a case of using the leaders properly to win the battles. Which as I see it
played a major part in this war. A good leader made much more of a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:43 am 
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I've already started on the next round of changes...I added a Veteran Company and Regiment to the Rebel side, coded as 'Elite', using the same choices of Riflemen units. Also added a Green Company and Regiment, coded as '2nd Line', with the same choices in units. Expanded the Brigade Commander units to 3 for each side, 1 'Elite', 1 regular and 1 '2nd Line'.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:14 pm 
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While not a real problem for those who can deal with it. (not near as many as there should be)
We are going to see a map switching side thing going on here with the current oob set up.

We will see the North on the right side of the map in the early years and random maps will
say the battles are in North Afrika.

In Sept of 43 we are going to see the North switch to the left side of the map and the game
will say the battles are now in Italy.

In June of 44 the sides stop flipping but the game will say it is now in Europe.

While we can't do much about where the game is saying it is taking place we can do something
about the map sides flipping if we are willing to move the North to the British or Canada OObs

At that point the sides will be North on the right and South on the left in all battles. (based on
same idea as the NA mod map set) which I do not think does a map flip in Sept of 43 if the
British or Canada is used.

This is mostly going to effect battles set up using the battle generator with random maps.

It also removes the fast Arty calls that the US (North) will have.

Is this something that is worth trying to remove? Or are we stuck with this?

If we have to live with this we are going to see the same sort of stuff with the maps
being picked for a battle but the retreat and reinforcement flags being on the wrong
sides. Any fancy custom maps will need to have the force sides and dates it can be
used on it noted in the map text files or you need a flip side map like was done in the
old La Volpe / Dragons Division theater if your going to stick to years being used for
these battles on custom maps. The idea of two maps for the same ground is not one
I plan to ever consider when it comes to map making.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Well, the real obstacle to switching the OOBs (besides the appearance thing, which I'll deal with in a minute), is that of the National Characteristics (or Country Training) preference being used: if this Pref is turned off, then it doesn't matter which OOBs get used. The actual switching is easy; with StuOBHack, I can change nationality for the entire OOB with one click.

However, the appearance thing is a bit more difficult: all the various SHP files would have to be rebuilt so that the flags and buttons look right, and access the correct OOBs. Also, while it would be easy to switch the US and UK (basically flipping the US Army with the US Navy), the selection buttons would not be in line with the Confederate ones: now, both the US and CS Army OOBs are on the top row, with their respective navies below them. Flipping the 2 US OOBs would put the US Navy selection on top. It all depends on how much we are willing to compromise on...

The SHP rebuilding is the real thorny matter: there are at least 4 different files that have flags or buttons in them, and 2 of them are fullscreen selection frames (the Battle Generator screen and the Editor screen). I can do it, because I have all the BMPs saved for each button and flag, but it is going to be a chore to do them. Of course, I also don't like the map switching that goes on because of the badly-researched and built Random Map Location Learnt-My-WWII-History-From-The-Back-Of-A-Cereal-Box-And-Think-I'm-Steven-Ambrose Code Routine. :censor:

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:24 pm 
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FlashfyreSP wrote:
I also don't like the map switching that goes on because of the badly-researched and built Random Map Location Learnt-My-WWII-History-From-The-Back-Of-A-Cereal-Box-And-Think-I'm-Steven-Ambrose Code Routine. :censor:


I bet that felt good.. I got a good laugh from it. I find it sort of typical now days. If you look at
what happened with the economy it is the same thing. Some very smart people who spent a lot
of money for an education are either really very stupid or criminals. I like to think they are criminals
since that means there is still some hope for the rest of the human race.

I was afraid of the problems you mentioned. I am not sure it's worth the work to make a change.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Well, on the + side, doing SHP work is something I can squeeze in between work and work...and since it won't be needed quick-like, I won't feel pressured to "git r' dun" right now. :teeth:

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:41 pm 
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Ok, its done. I flipped the US Army and Navy OOBs, redid the Battle and Batbut SHP files so the buttons have the correct flags, switched up the VP flags in Icon0016 and the ID flags in Icon0061, and 'hacked' the Mech to switch the names. :dance:
So now we'll have no damn side-switchin' by ya dirty Rebs!

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 Post subject: Re: Problems Noted List
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:18 pm 
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FlashfyreSP wrote:
Ok, its done. I flipped the US Army and Navy OOBs, redid the Battle and Batbut SHP files so the buttons have the correct flags, switched up the VP flags in Icon0016 and the ID flags in Icon0061, and 'hacked' the Mech to switch the names. :dance:
So now we'll have no damn side-switchin' by ya dirty Rebs!


It was you Yankee varmints that set this all up. Ya'll passing the blame is just cowardly.
Next thing you know ya'll be blaming us for the fact you forgot to lock up the Armory
and accusing us of stealing your cannons and long guns.

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