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 Post subject: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:59 am 
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In this section I am going to go over most of the options you have when you are looking at
picking the right weapons for an Infantry squad and what weapons you may want to look at
as support for your Infantry forces. While I do not plan to drag out each and every weapon
and start picking apart the data on them or show you a bunch of pictures I do plan to tell you
a little bit about each of the weapon types not necessarily the benefits of one model over
another. I have to leave that for you to discover by experience. Most of these weapons
had a purpose and a reason. Some are better choices then others due to how they were
employed. As a quick example of what I mean look at AT Grenades vs AT Rifles. One of
them had you really close the other allowed you some distance from the target. When
talking about men on the ground they like distance when it comes to the enemy. The
farther away they could keep them the better it was for there own health.

Each of your squads can have up to four different weapons. In almost every case the main
weapon will be a rifle of some sort. There are several different types of rifles and some of
them are more effective then others. Often your not going to get to choose what rifles your
going to get. But in some cases you may have a choice between rifles of different types.

Most of the nations have one main Rifle and it is often a bolt action rifle. These weapons were
issued to the majority of troops. They are considered the standard weapon used by that
nations infantry. These weapons were slower to shoot and often held only 5 or 6 rounds before
they had to be reloaded. Examples include the US Springfield 1903, the German Gewehr 98,
the British Lee-Enfield and the Russian Mosin Nagant.

In some cases you may have access to a semi auto weapon which is faster to fire then a bolt
action rifle. They allowed the shooter to keep his eye on the enemy and fire off rounds as fast
as he could pull the trigger. While holding only a similar amount of ammo as a Bolt Action rilfe
the speed at which the rounds could be fired made these weapons an improvement. Perhaps the
most famous example of this sort is the Garrard. Carbine versions of this type also made an
appearance in the war. They often used a shorter barrel making them easier to use in close
in confined areas and easier to store in a tank or transport vehicle. The .30 Cal US Carbine
is a good example of these smaller semi auto weapons. A Full Auto modification would allow
this sort of weapon to fit well in the Assault Rifle category and during the war some troops did
manage to make there semi auto rifles go full auto by doing a little field gun smithing.

Then we have Sub Machine Guns or Machine Pistols these weapons were very useful in the
close quarters fighting inside buildings and were deadly at short range. They fired pistol
caliber rounds in full auto mode allowing the shooter to spray an area with as many as 30
or more rounds in a matter of seconds. Examples of these sort of weapons are the US
Thompson, German MP 40, British Sten, Russian PPSh.

As the war progressed we saw the first true Assault Rifles be produced. Most people think they
know what an Assault Rifle is and most people would be wrong. The modern media has taken
that term and perverted it. An Assault Rifle is a rifle that fires a rifle round often from a larger
magazine (30 rounds) and does this in Full Auto mode. You hold down the trigger and the gun
will fire until you let go of the trigger or the gun expends all its ammo load. If you consider
the fire power of the machine pistols or Sub Machine guns impressive. The fire from an Assault
Rifle would make those guns look weak. Larger more deadly rounds with a longer range fired
in full auto made these weapons the one to fear. The best example of this is the German
SturmGerweir 44 that was issued to the Paratroop and SS units.

From this list you can determine what sort of rifle your units have. If you have choices you may
want to consider your options. The Assault Rifle would be first choice followed by the Semi Auto
and then the Bolt Actions. The Sub Machine Guns while packing a lot of punch have a much
shorter effective range and unless you can get close to the enemy they are not going to be as
effective as you might need them to be. They may be a good choice if your in a city battle.

The next class of weapons your squads will have is some sort of Grenade. While there were a
lot of different types using in the war and each one had a purpose as far as the game goes your
not going to get to select the grenade types. Obviously with this category the more you have
the better. These weapons could include Molotov cocktails and other improvised weapons
depending on the type of squads involved.

The next item may be some form of Anti Tank weapon. These came in many forms and some of
them were a lot more useful then others. They range from a bundle of explosives or a mine to
a rocket propelled reloadable launcher. Rifle Grenades which were fired by attacking a device
to the standard issue Rifle and using a blank round allowed the Infantry to fire a grenade with
much greater range then a man could throw one. With practice they could be quite accurate
and were often used to take out snipers and machine gun positions as well as the odd vehicle
which got too close to the infantry Rather then try and cover all of the variants possible here
know that your best method of determining how useful they will be to you is to consider what
sort of situation you expect to be in and the choices you have available. If you expect tanks to
be around then you want the best weapons you can get for your squads. These would be the
rocket propelled weapons (or the British Piat which used a spring) if those are not available
then AT mines and grenade bundles would be the next choice. Rifle gernades have not show
to me that they are all that useful when it comes to deal with armor despite the Army telling
the men they were capable. Anti Tank Rifles may be available in some cases and they make
a fair choice. While they are not always going to score kills on Armor they often will shoot them
up rather nicely causing malfunctions and damaging tracks and turrets.

The next item on the list is often a squad Machine gun. You may not get much in the way of a
choice here but if you do the newer ones tend to be more accurate and offer the better option.
One weapon that comes to mind here is the Browning Automatic Rifle. or B.A.R which replaced
the older more cumbersome Mg in US rifle squads. The B.A.R. is a large and heavy weapon
as far as rifles go and quite impressive to see in action. Its main drawback is the bottom feed
magazine of limited round capacity. The British Bren Gun is a much more efficient weapon then
the B.A.R. when it comes to ease of use and speed at which it can be employed. I think this sort
of weapon is up to you to pick but I often will take the older mg over a B.A.R and despite some
players saying the Bren gun is worthless I like them I have gotten good service from them.

The last category is one of hand weapons like knifes or bayonets, I would not suggest these
weapons unless you are expecting to be in hand to hand combat with the enemy squads. They
are not useful at range and only in a close fight do they provide any benefit at all. If you have
other weapons to choose from take them. If they are available as an extra and no other weapon
is going to be given you might as well take them. You never know when the situation might
call for them. Small arms can also fall into this category. Pistols are not going to be all that
useful as a weapon other then as a last resort or in a melee attack.

One weapon that is not player selectable is the smoke gernades that most squads will have.
Players often either overlook them or abuse them. They are available and if you are more
aware of them they can be quite useful. Even with higher visibility settings which removes
the force field effect of smoke from the game the smoke will make it harder for the enemy
to spot and hit your units behind a screen of smoke. When attacking a Bunker or Mg nest
smoke is often necessary and it never seems to be thick enough. You can always add a
small amount by popping smoke with your Infantry squad.

Some squads will have special weapons such as Satchel Charges and Demo Kits. These are
often given to Engineer and special forces units. They are mainly used for blowing up bunkers
and hard targets. They can be used to take on Armor and even used against infantry to cause
a lot of damage. These weapons are in short supply and before you run off tossing them on
just any target you should consider that you may need them latter when you find your way
blocked by a strong point or bunker complex. Don't waste these weapons too soon until
you are sure you won't need them. Also keep in mind that the squads that have them should
not be walking point and subject to being destroyed before you can use the weapons they have
have.

I noted in another post that when close assaulting a vehicle you may see better results if
your turn off all the weapons but the gernades or explosives you plan to use. This does
seem to work and the logic behind it is that more men will be going after the vehicle then
would be the case if you left the other weapons on and more men remained in cover and fired
rifles at the vehicle.

No matter what your plans are if you plan to fire your weapons you may want to look at the
suppression level of the unit. If it is suppressed a rally attempt should be made. Units will
fire more accurately and that alone increases your chances to score more kills.

Infantry when in use need constant tending not only for rally and suppression checks but they
also need to have ranges checked often. Enemy op fires and long range fires will alter the
range settings you have for your units and this can cause your defense to open up gaps as
units run out of op fire wasting it on long range low percentage shots or are not dropping from
enemy sight due to having a high range setting. Units with ranges set very low or at zero
are going to hide better then units set to max range. Turning off weapons also adds to the
ability of a unit to drop from view and speeds the time necessary to alter stance to the in
cover or dug in state. The better players are going to cycle through every unit they have
each and every turn and check them before they save the turn and send it to you. You need
to be doing this too. Your giving away your own forces too easily if your not spending this
sort of time tending your own forces.

At the start of every turn you may of noticed that units you had spotted at the end of last turn
are no longer visible. They may of moved or they may of just dropped out of sight. At the
start of every turn it is also very helpful to cycle through all of your units not only checking
ranges to see if they were adjusted by enemy fire. But also to look left and right with your
units to gain new spotting checks. This may reveal units that were not spotted. It is better
to find them in this way before you move your first unit and take op fire.

So if your not already doing it. I just added two very good reasons for you to cycle through
every unit you have. Once at the start of your turn and once at the end of your turn. If your
not doing this then that alone could be why you may not be doing as well as you could be.
No matter what your tactics and planning level is if your not tending your forces each turn
all the planning and even superior tactics will not save you. Your killing yourself and making
it easy for your opponent to destroy you.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:00 am 
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Platoon Support Weapons.

Most of the Rifle platoons had access to other weapons then just the mans standard equipment.
These were sometimes used by a single man or a 2 man crew and attached to the platoon as
support. Weapons of this type were often AT weapons or Light Mortars and at times a light
Machine Gun which was often on a bipod and easily transportable. These weapons may be
part of a platoon or they may come to in the form of a weapons platoon which is often part
of the Company formation. They may even have an HQ of there own and be grouped together
when purchased. In some cases it would be to your advantage to break up these formations
and attach the weapons to platoons for use. This is done using the assign unit to a new HQ
button and done during the deployment phase.

These weapons provide a large amount of fire power and represent the majority of the specialized
ability's of a rifle company or platoon. They are small and tend to hide well and they also seem
to be good spotters. You should not place these units as trip wires or use them as scouts. They
are going to effect the moral of the formations they are attached to and the loss of these units
not only lowers the fighting ability of the formation it lowers the overall morale of the formation
when they are destroyed. As I noted in the recon section out posting your lines is important
and needs to be done but these units are not the ones you want to use to do it. You are better
off buying a separate formation that reports directly to the A0 HQ for that purpose.

These units are man portable and can be broke down into man sized loads and hauled off. They
often do not have transport of there own. In some cases a few nations did provide hand carts
or a wagon or light utility vehicle to move them during major moves. But in combat they
walked just like everyone else. These units may of come to you as part of the Company
weapons platoon but they are handed down most of the time to platoons. They are intended
to be platoon support weapons and were used as such.

When you deploy these units you should not be in a rush to place them directly in the front lines
or forward of the rifle units. They should be placed in the rear or just behind the Rifle units.
This keeps them from being the first units spotted and taken under fire. This lets them return
fire more often and allows them to survive longer once contact with the enemy heats up.

At all times you need to think of these specific weapons as part of the formation and as support
weapons. They exist to support the formation they are with. They are not there to be the main
weapon used to fire on the enemy or be the only weapon that opens up on an enemy headed
your way. Rather then set the ranges on these weapons high to start combat friction on the
approaching enemy set the ranges low enough that the Rifle units open up first and draw the
majority of fire from the enemy. Use these weapons to add to that fire and to be the weapons
that tip the tide of the fight in your favor.

Let the Light Mg's provide the kills necessary to take on enemy Infantry let the Rifle squads do
the main work of suppressing the enemy first. Use the Light mortars with spotters who can see
what the mortars are firing on. This allows them to be 50% more effective then unspotted fire.
Keep your AT teams in the rear and move them only 1 hex if necessary to get a shot on the
enemy vehicles that attempt to close with you. Like AT guns they will do better if they have
a small los cone to fire down so that return op fire is limited.

All of this may seem a bit over the top but doing these things will make your forces function
much better and when your using the Low carnage settings these sort of tactics will be necessary
to inflict kills in an efficient manner. The fire power of the Rifle squads alone is only part of
what you are bring to the fight. Keeping your platoon support weapons in that fight as long as
possible is going to help you win more fights.

Keep a close watch on the ranges that get set by enemy op fires. Check these often to make
sure your units are dropping from sight as often as possible. If necessary move to avoid taking
fire from enemy weapons. It is better to fall back and reposition your whole line them to allow
the enemy to take out your support weapons leaving your rifle squads on there own.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:00 am 
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Company support Weapons.

Your probably thinking that these are the same weapons I just covered and come to you as
part of the company weapons platoon. The are not. Those weapons were part of the company
and while they did support the company they were often handed down to platoons to use.
The quantity of these weapons is often only a single weapon or section at the company level.
Even if these weapons are not provided most of the time they should be purchased as they
would of been available. Keep these purchases reasonable and small. Stick with a section
if you are not sure and avoid platoon purchasing of these weapons as company level support.

The weapons here are going to be weapons that in some cases are part of battalion or higher level
command and handed down to the company to use as support weapons. These weapons would
often be Medium Mortars, Anti Tank Guns, Infantry Guns, Medium or Heavy Machine Guns.
These weapons often require or have some form of transport with them to move them around.
Utility vehicles, wagons or gun teams often are used and would stay with the weapons and not be
used to send out recon forces because someone got there own transport destroyed. These weapons
are not all that useful if they can not be moved to where they are needed. Keep the transport they
come with or have with them.

Each of these weapons should be placed where they can function best and each of them has a
different sort of capability and requirements to using them effectively. They should never be
placed out alone with out the support of the rest of the formation. They are too important to
risk like that, They need to be protected and supported by Infantry to keep the enemy off of
them so they can do what they do best. Provide heavy support.

Lets start with the Medium Mortars they may come with a company or be purchased in a separate
formations. They should be placed behind the lines at least 5 or more hexes back from the front.
this allows them to be close enough to the front to give good support to a large area of the front
and remain accurate. Out side of 20 hexes these weapons will scatter the rounds all over and
seldom hit what you were aiming at. They should be dug in and if you have ammo given a
source of ammo to reload from. Almost all calls for fire from these weapons should be spotted
fire. Calls can come from the F0 or AO or whoever you want but the last unit to adjust the fall
of the rounds should be done by a unit that can see the target. This gains you that 50% bonus
to effectiveness. Shooting these weapons in unspotted fires is a waste of ammo and done only
as a last resort by better players. If these units are threatened by enemy fire or start to take
heavy counter battery fire you may want to move them to new locations. I advise you select
terrain that provided good cover and is hidden from view from most units. Rough terrain or
rocks offer good spots. Avoid buildings since a collapse of the building or a fire can destroy the
units or force them out of contact.

Anti Tank Guns, Infantry Guns and the Medium and Heavy Machine Guns should be used in way
that are similar. They are easy targets to take out and will be best used if placed with caution to
limit the field of view and possible op fire on them. They will score more kills if allowed to op fire
on unsuspecting targets then if you place them in the front lines and let them watch over a larger
line of sight. They should always be dug in and in good defensive terrain. They should have a Mg
or rifle support nearby to keep enemy rifle squads from getting to them and suppressing them.
The best places to put these weapons on the flanks of your infantry formations so that they can
fire across the frontage of the rifle lines. This will help keep enemy armor and vehicles out of
your own lines. They should move if they are taken under fire and reposition to new locations.
They are also too valuable to be risked in a stand or die situation. They provide far to much fire
power to waste in that manner. This means the transport they have or should have needs to be
close enough to pick up the unit and move away quickly to allow them to reposition quickly. Once
the location of these units is know to the enemy they will be trying to take them out using Artillery
and direct fire if possible. Consider using the same shoot and scoot tactics you might use with armor
with these weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:02 am 
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Battalion Level Support.

Similar to the way the Company level support happens the weapons here are controlled by Regiment
or Division and handed down to the the Rifle Battalion which is in command of the rifle companies
in your battles. This sort of support is often in larger quantities and is often Artillery support or
heavy weapons support in the form of additional Anti Tank weapons or AA support weapons. These
weapons come and go at the whim of higher command and are never left with units that are not in
need of them. They go where they are needed and follow the units that are in the front lines.
Second line units and those not in the front lines would not have access to these weapons.

At this level of support Artillery would be in the form of a battalion or 12 tubes as the smallest
amount provided. This could be split down to one battery of 4 tubes to support a single company
but the artillery commander never loses control of his guns to the other commands. He allows
priority calls for fire to be taken before other requests. So these guns do not belong to you as
a Battalion commander what belongs to you is permission from higher command to call for fire
from them at a higher priority then other commands. The level of support would only be increased
if there was a need shown for it. Units under heavy attack or on a planned offensive might have
access to more and more Artillery calls since they have a demonstrated need for priority fires.

Anti Tank Gun support is often provided in the form of battery which could be as small as a 4 gun
troop or platoon. Depending on the nation and the structure of these units a "battery" could be as
many as 12 guns or more. Obviously the need to have these sort of weapons attached tells you
that enemy armor is expected. Your not going to get this sort of support to take on Infantry
units. The transport for these guns stays with them and is not yours to use for other needs.
The formations go back to higher command when they ask for them or the need for them is
over and they are sent to new locations.

AA guns often will be given out in to rear area units to defend against air attack. These weapons
are not often seen in front lines. They would take the form of AA Machine Guns and Light guns in
the 20mm, 37mm and 40mm Range. Larger guns would not be seen at the front unless it was
near a depot or other important location. Bridges often may have some AA cover to keep enemy
bombers from destroying them. Quantities of these would often be in section or platoon level at
best.

Armor support is something that players think they are supposed to have. This is really not the
case no matter what the nation in use is. Armor is not something that every infantry unit could
expect to see. One of the things that historical gamers complain about are players who are
always buying tanks to support the infantry. These leads to name calling of arcade gamer and
gamey players. While it is not fair in many cases it tends to be relevant to the scale at which
this is done. If every battle has armor in it then yea your not dealing with historical gamers
your dealing with something else. You see the same thing happen when larger quantities of
AA guns and other support weapons are used in less then historical manners to score kills.
Players will defend this by saying it did happen. Well a lot of things happened once or twice
but how often they happen is what is really relevant.

Ok now that I have pissed off the non-historical gamers who will now say it is my fault they
don't learn to play differently lets look at what might be available in the way of armor. In most
nations, Armor was provided to a Division in the form of an Independent unit in which case you
would be given infantry tanks. Not front line main battle tanks. That sort of thing happens in
movies and on TV since it looks cool. What you would be getting is a section or platoon of armor
in support of a battalion of infantry. Tank Companies supported Regiments not companies or Battalions. An Armor division has its own infantry in support of them. They do not support
the Infantry commands. Infantry Divisions seldom have Armor in them. They are given the use
of Armor from separate formations for the purpose of supporting the infantry.

Tanks in this category might include the following. Pz IV, Matilda, Valentines, M3 or M4 Shermans
Stuarts, KV I and T-28 tanks. Stugs would be available to Grenadier formations. The chances
of seeing a Tiger or a section of T-34 or Firefly Shermans show up is slim to none. In fact most of
what you might see would be old worn out and often short in terms of effective, and unless you
were working with these units a lot cooperation was often not the best. The tankers would pull out
to restock ammo or tell the infantry they could not shoot at a target they can not kill. Those front
line vehicles were not used to support infantry. They are kept in mass by the armor commanders
who would fight to his last breath the parceling out of his command in small groups. What you
see in the Movies where Joe runs back and grabs a tank to come up and support his attack is just
that, a Movie. It's fiction. There was either planned support or not. Tanks were not parked on
every corner waiting for someone to call them up and tell them to come forward and blow up a
house because his platoon is pinned down.

If your desire is to see larger amounts of armor in your battles then do it right. Buy a minimum of
a company or more and add infantry to it as the support for the Armor formations.

The only time you will see mixed formations is when a battle group or task group was created to
undertake a specific mission. These sort of formations existed only for a short time and were a
hodgepodge of forces of all types. They did not start the war in that formation and they would be
lucky to stay in that formation for a week or more. They did not go through a whole war and be
upgraded along the way to new models of equipment as it became available. This alone is perhaps
the biggest lie that the game tells players. It makes it seem to the average person who is not up
on his studies of these things, that this is how it was done. It really was not how it happened.

Knowing this single fact is really the difference between Arcade players and Historical players.
While you are free to play as you want and there is no shame in doing it either way, It is highly
advisable that you talk about the sort of games you want to play with this in mind. The times
when these two groups of players get to talking is when you can expect arguments to start up
as one side or the other tries to explain something to the other side. It is best to determine
the sort of play that is expected before the bragging and chest beating of the pre game banter
gets to the point where it becomes obvious that the two sides are not in agreement as to what
should be going on in the game. The skills and forces on the field of battle to play in one sort
of style are not the same ones needed to do well in the other. Avoid mixing them unless your
looking to start arguments. Agree to disagree and work out the details of how to play a game.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:04 pm 
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NotAToy wrote:
Company support Weapons.


Anti Tank Guns, Infantry Guns and the Medium and Heavy Machine Guns should be used in way
that are similar. They are easy targets to take out and will be best used if placed with caution to
limit the field of view and possible op fire on them. They will score more kills if allowed to op fire
on unsuspecting targets then if you place them in the front lines and let them watch over a larger
line of sight. They should always be dug in and in good defensive terrain. They should have a Mg
or rifle support nearby to keep enemy rifle squads from getting to them and suppressing them.
The best places to put these weapons on the flanks of your infantry formations so that they can
fire across the frontage of the rifle lines. This will help keep enemy armor and vehicles out of
your own lines. They should move if they are taken under fire and reposition to new locations.
They are also too valuable to be risked in a stand or die situation. They provide far to much fire
power to waste in that manner. This means the transport they have or should have needs to be
close enough to pick up the unit and move away quickly to allow them to reposition quickly. Once
the location of these units is know to the enemy they will be trying to take them out using Artillery
and direct fire if possible. Consider using the same shoot and scoot tactics you might use with armor
with these weapons.


The problem for most so called "infantry guns" in the game, is that they are assumed to be direct fire capable only and coded this way. This is plain wrong and not properly set up in the OOBs. The correct unit class would be "howitzer", a short barreled, high angle fire capable weapon. This counts particularly for german 75mm IG 18 and 150mm IG 33. These were the regimental artillery so to say and normally a plotoon of 2 IG 18 howitzers (or more) were subordinated to an infantry battalion as support. The IG 33 were held back for special (high value/threat) targets.

The standard role was indirect fire support (from covered positions), using a dedicated FO, either for the platoon or in overall control from the IG company commander. These were also integrated in the general fire plans with other support weapons.

Direct fire was used only under appropiate conditions when range and enemy threat was less of concern for the howitzers.


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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Rockinharry wrote:
The problem for most so called "infantry guns" in the game, is that they are assumed to be direct fire capable only and coded this way. This is plain wrong and not properly set up in the OOBs. The correct unit class would be "howitzer", a short barreled, high angle fire capable weapon. This counts particularly for German 75mm IG 18 and 150mm IG 33. These were the regimental artillery so to say and normally a platoon of 2 IG 18 howitzers (or more) were subordinated to an infantry battalion as support. The IG 33 were held back for special (high value/threat) targets.

The standard role was indirect fire support (from covered positions), using a dedicated FO, either for the platoon or in overall control from the IG company commander. These were also integrated in the general fire plans with other support weapons.

Direct fire was used only under appropriate conditions when range and enemy threat was less of concern for the howitzers.


I tend to agree with you here. But I have to work with what is given to me. If you need or want the
Indirect fire by all means delete the Infantry guns that come with the Heavy weapons platoon and replace
with a howitzer. I simply do not have the ability to alter the oobs I can only state my case to Alby and if
necessary make that same case to Flash. if Alby defers judgment in favor of a second opinion. The oobs
are not mine to alter. I will however make this correction when I get around to finally completing the
oobs for the PBM mod. I don't have the same requirements of keeping Campaigns and Scenarios intact
that FR has tried to maintain. I would side with you if this were to be something that became a bone of
contention but since they can be deleted and replaced with the indirect fire weapons at the players option
with the existing units available for purchase. Getting them altered to solve this mislabeled class of
weapons (What would you call this ?) is probably not going to happen. Having brought up similar
arguments in the past over other things, experience tells me this is a wasted argument I won't win.
But if you want to take a shot at getting Alby to do it. I'll back you up. You are correct.

In PBM games we have arty limits and players are free to buy these things or are given them in a game
where they were not given a choice as to unit selection you still need to find a way to make them useful.
I hear what you are saying. But I don't see any way to make these direct fire guns useful unless you treat
them as an AT gun for shooting infantry rather then armor. You still need to set them up in a way that will
allow them to get a few shots in before they are found and destroyed. If you do replace them then you
have the best of both of worlds but have to count them as artillery to stay within any Arty limits set for your
battle.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:58 am 
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It´s all not a problem to me personally, but I just wanted to point out, that the tactics you describe above for heavy weapons use, while absolutely correct and viable, do not quite realistically apply to infantry howitzers (classed infantry guns) with regard to their historical use.

One argument for not having onboard howitzers to be used indirectly, is their generally longer setup and combat readiness times, which are about 20-30 minutes (4-6 SPWAW game turns) realistically. One could workaround in user made scenarios, by getting the guns on map without ammo, but let them replenish with an added ammo crate/truck. This would also reflect the limited ammo loads, infantry howitzer units carry with them. This works best in scenarios, where the howitzers are used in mobile situations.

Assault/Defend type scenarios would most likely assume the howitzers to be combat ready at scenario start.

Overall this style of play works best on larger maps (above 80x80 hexes), where the guns min and max ranges can be used best (fall between medium mortars and light artillery).


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 Post subject: Re: 8 Infantry Weapons and Support Weapons.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Location: Playing In the Sandbox
Rockinharry wrote:
One argument for not having onboard howitzers to be used indirectly, is their generally longer setup and combat readiness times, which are about 20-30 minutes (4-6 SPWAW game turns) realistically. One could workaround in user made scenarios, by getting the guns on map without ammo, but let them replenish with an added ammo crate/truck. This would also reflect the limited ammo loads, infantry howitzer units carry with them. This works best in scenarios, where the howitzers are used in mobile situations.


I don't much like the on board indirect fire weapons as far as a game goes. I don't like the fact that they
can be put in place fire in the next turn and load and move in a the turn they fired to a new spot to do it
all over again. We in effect have created something that in WW II just was not there. This is why they
made the effort to mount these things in trucks and on tank chassis and make them self propelled.
But so much of what we have to deal with came about by letting it be decided by a popular vote among
people some with questionable knowledge of the war. Hell if you go back and look at the early stuff on
the oob team. They voted on voting to vote on things. Its no wonder it became a mess.

I looked at a similar idea of pulling all the ammo from all the guns AT, Inf, and Arty and giving them only
a few rounds. (ready rounds) the rest would be provided by reloading from ammo boxes. The idea was
that most of the larger guns do not have ready to fire ammo it has to be built before it can be shot or at
the very least be pulled from its travel cases. It would again be something that would work better on larger
maps with a bit of time in your favor. The longer you could be in place the more ammo the guns would have
ready to shoot. Seriously favors a defender. Adds a bit of real world reality to the attacking side when you
pull up with your guns and find out you have only 4 rounds ready to shoot until the crews make a few more
ready.

People seem to forget that it does not take a crew of 5 or 6 to fire a gun. But it does take that many to
handle the rounds for that gun so that it can be made ready to fire. The actual number of men with the
need to be at the gun adjusting it could be as few as 1 or 2 Obviously the larger guns needed more men
to work them but they also needed more men to deal with the ammo. The 88 is a good one for this. The
majority of that crew is for ammo work not the gun. Even in AA mode there are a large number of men
going nothing but pulling rounds from cases fusing them and making them ready to fire. Hell even the lowly
light mg team of 3 men have 2 of them dealing with ammo among there duties. It only takes one man to
aim and pull the trigger.

Ended up dropping the idea due to the fact players would hate it, The added time it would impose on an
attacking force leaving them open to a counter attack by a defender who had spent time building up the
ammo before they arrived was the last straw in that plan. But I can easily see where this could be done
in a Scenario to simulate the guns not being really ready to fire at any given moment. With out the
ability to control the speed at which stuff reloads its not going to work out very well in the end.

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