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 Post subject: Is it really Gamey Tactics to do that?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 464
Location: Playing In the Sandbox
This one comes up once players start complaining about something that someone did to them
in a game and it cost them dearly. An Artillery park was smashed and destroyed or the A0
HQ was killed or some other catastrophic event that caused the lose of units and the foiling of
a plan. These get brought up as possible gamey tactics and players chime in with opinions
based on how they play the game. If you are a player who thinks that using any means you
can think of to win a battle is fair game then odds are your not playing too many games with
players who think differently then you do. I am not going to outright condemn the use of bugs
or undocumented features or even game mechanic exploits. All of these can be fair play if that
is the sort of game you agreed to play in. That is why talking about the sort of game you want
is so important when playing someone for the first time.

I do not plan to list or even cover some of the bugs and exploits here since I do not think they
should be used in serious games. I do plan to talk a bit about some of the things players have
called gamey tactics and why I think that they have been labeled as such by some players.
What I will offer is my opinion on these things and offer a reason why they are not really a
gamey tactic I most likely will insult some players who feel that they are gamey and I am
just insulting them for thinking that. Oh well no big deal I think I have made it painfully clear
in the past what I think of the AI Killing Braggarts and Arcade Game Commandos. What players
do to slaughter the AI is really no ones concern since that is more or less not a big test of skills
anyway and the AI doesn't call tactics names. When playing other human players this can be a
big deal and cause for game destroying problems. Charges of Gamey play and hard feelings
will cause no end of problems between players who could of avoided this whole mess if they
had only spend a bit of time to talk about the game they wanted to play and knew enough
about the game to make reasonable choices. Even though I disagree with some of the rules
players make I can still play under them if I know that is what is expected. If I can do it so
can every other player out there.

I think the biggest one here is Smoke Use. Most players have no real problem with smoke when
it is delivered by Mortar or Artillery. They seem to complain the most when it comes from the
infantry and Armor units. I have already covered the fact that setting a proper visibility will
solve most of the smoke use problems players have as well as cure some other stupid things
that some players have taken for granted when playing with limited visibility. But that still does
leave a few things in question. Lets look first at the Armor. Some Armor has smoke rounds that
can be fired from the main guns. I think it more then fair to say that firing that smoke after other
units have fired on an enemy position to block or hinder los for return fire is not gamey. Unless
there is already a lot of smoke in the los area anyway a few rounds is most likely only going to
effect a few units and even at that only for a turn or two at most before it must be renewed.
If you have been on the receiving end of a lot of fire and then find the los blocked for your return
fire you need to buy a hint here and move your unit before it is destroyed. The enemy clearly
knows where you are. If you stay in place and whine about the smoke blocking your los you
deserve to lose the units anyway. You are an Idiot who has no clue. Rather then stay in a spot
where your enemy is setting you up for destruction move to a new location and wait for him to fall
into your new trap. DO NOT wait for the smoke to clear, use it to your own advantage and relocate
and set up a new Kill zone. Do not allow the enemy to kill you because you were thinking you could
get him when the smoke clears. Do not call this tactic gamey. A tank working in support of other
units is using weapons and rounds that is has in a perfectly legitimate manner. Those smoke
rounds are there just for that reason to blind the enemy from returning fire. They are not there
so that players can line up tanks and fire a barrage smoke screen. This is an acceptable use of
the rounds that unit has. They are limited in number and will run out sooner or latter. Also you
should consider that it could of fired HE at you and killed you out right. Use the smoke to relocate
and consider adding your own smoke to help cover that relocation.

Next on the list is Armor that has smoke dischargers. It is common practice to fire them when a
tank started taking incoming fire. Now it would be a bit gamey to fire them after blasting away
from an exposed position and finding that your out of movement and decided to pop smoke to
help your armor out. It would not be gamey to pop that smoke and then move away from the
exposed position in an effort to get back in cover. So I think a good rule of thumb here is that
if you hit your smoke dischargers you need to move after that towards a safe location. It does
not necessarily have to be to the rear. You should also never pull into the open pop smoke and
start shooting. That too is on the gamey side of proper use of smoke dischargers.

Next on the list. The Infantry use of smoke. They have a lot of it due to the expectation that
the visibility will be set above 24 and smoke is not a force field. Now if that is the case then the
amount they have starts to look more reasonable. Just about every use of smoke you can think
up is probably acceptable use except one. The smoke these units have was intended to do several
things. it was used to mark positions but it was also used to help hide the men who often were
either about to make a risky move out in the open or where attempting to shield them from a
shooter or spotter who had them in sight. Smoke is supposed to block los to some extent but
it should not block the ability to fire through it. So to avoid gamey use of smoke you should
not use it as a means of adding to the limiting of los after you exposed your position and fired
all your rounds off to the point you have lost movement. Use them like the smoke dischargers
if you fire a few shots and pop smoke you had best move afterwords to a position of safety. Use
of smoke to cover movement is fine. Use of it to reduce the effectiveness of incoming fire after
you have made a stupid move of exposing your position and take full advantage of firing off all
your shots is not.

The last bit on smoke is plotting fire on smoke plumes. I have covered this a bit in the artillery
sections and will only say that if you think this is a gamey tactic your not much of a player. You
want to stay safe from attack but expect to reap the benefits of on board artillery and ammo use.
You clearly want to avoid spending the points to make those units mobile and move after shooting
and your not willing to accept the fact that when these units fired they did make smoke plumes.
Get over it. Find ways to deal with it. Consider how you place your units and how you can do
it to avoid the loss of all your artillery to counter battery fire or air attack. IF you can't do that
then I suggest you buy only SP guns and off board artillery. Your clearly looking only to gain an
advantage by not allowing fire on a smoke plume. I am also well aware of the mortar arguement
about smoke plumes. Perhaps you need to look more at how you and the people your playing
are using your artillery and stop with the gamey tactics stuff until you learn some tactics of your
own. Yea I am being rude here. My reason is to make a point here. If having the enemy target
smoke plumes is such a problem for you that you need to call that gamey you are not near as good
a player as you think you are. I suggest you read the section on Artillery posted here and learn
more about what was done in WW II in the way of finding targets for counter battery fire. You are
not the victim of Gamey play here. Your just a victim of your own self imposed limitations. There
are things you can do to deal with this sort of thing other then make charges of gamey play or
rules to prevent it. Learn them. When you fire you know your going to expose your position by
generating a smoke plume. Does it really have to be early in the game? Does the target your
planning on shooting at meet the status of something worth exposing your units for? Do you
think that maybe putting your units into better terrain might help and spreading them out more
be useful? Have you considered that fires can be started almost at will by using a few flame
throwers and that smoke can be created by other units not just artillery and mortars? You have
a lot more options then just calming plotting on a smoke plume is gamey play try a few of them.


 Post subject: Re: Is it really Gamey Tactics to do that?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:44 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:44 pm
Posts: 464
Location: Playing In the Sandbox
What is gamey about using a vehicle to draw op fire? That one is a good one. It is often a given
that players will place AT weapons to fire down an avenue of approach fishing for an op fire shot on
the enemy. What they find to be a problem is the fish they hooked was not a big one but a little tiny
one and it ate the bait. Who is at fault here? Was this really a gamey event? Not a Chance.

What it is would better be called poor placement of a high value military asset. If you have placed
an AT gun or other valuable weapons system in a location where you are expecting it to op fire on
a unit that passes through its los and did not also place low value units to cull out the little fish then
you placed a high value weapons system in a bad spot. If a car or jeep is triggering the op fire
of your AT guns its your own fault. These low cost units are easily killed by a single LMG or ATR
which costs almost as much as the car your whining stole your op fire using gamey tactics.

Did that clear it up for you? No you need more? Ok. How do you think the recon forces found
the enemy AT guns? Did they sit on a hill and watched for hours on end waiting for the crew to get
up and take a **** or stand out in the open and eat lunch? Do you think that the guns are so poorly
sighted that they stuck out to anybody who happened to scan an area looking for the gun? Do you
think there were signs pointing it out or marks on the map you were given? -> AT gun here.

Please. Think about this a bit. The recon guys were riding in cars, trucks and half tracks and often
had armor cars and motorcycles or even horses in use. Most of these things are going to trigger
an op fire and if they keep moving they are going to draw several rounds of it. This is how they
found these guns. They pulled up to a suspect area. Several units would remain in over watch
and one unlucky unit would go hauling *** down the road or path hoping like hell that they lived
to make it to cover. If they drew fire the other units not only marked that spot on the maps and
reported it they may even of attacked it in support of the unit out in the open. If they were not
in a position to attack or were not going to win that battle they may of done nothing.

Now if your the guy in the AC or car what is your best defense against a AT gun? It sure is not
going to be armor or even the threat of your puny mg mounted on the car it is going to be speed
and movement and lots of it. If the gun elected to fire on you then you must be a big threat
to them. Or the crew was just stupid and chose to show there positions to the recon units.

Now your going to say this is not what your talking about. Your talking about using a cheap car
to lead your armor up the road to find mines and take the first op fire shot. Guess what. This
was how it was done. If you think that the only thing on the road with the armor forces were
other tanks and high value targets your wrong. Often that was exactly what was leading the
way a car or scout vehicle of some sort. It was done exactly for the reasons your calling gamey.
It was done to find mines with out risking a tank or to get that crew of idiots to expose themselves
so they could be destroyed before they got a lucky shot on a tank.

Now you say no no I am talking about the guy who drives a unit out into the open and then keeps
moving around soaking up all the op fires. He should of stopped moving his car and brought out
his armor so I could shoot it up with my guns. If you really want me to respond to that argument
please PM me so that I can flame you to the point of tears. You clearly do not understand enough
about war or this game to even be playing it.

Bottom line here is simple. If your weapons are having there op fires drained from them then they
are poorly placed and not properly supported. it is your own fault and you need to learn how to
place these weapons and support them properly. You need to spend a few more points to buy
some light weapons to keep this from happening and site them in locations and set the ranges on
the main weapons in ways that do not allow this sort of thing to occur before you can respond to
the threats.


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