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 Post subject: Infantry Combat Results Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:12 am 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
Please post your thoughts about the infantry combat here; things that work, things that don't, things that just don't seem right.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
Well, I guess I'll start... :stir:

JEB and I are facing off with 2 small pure infantry forces: 1 Skirmisher Company, 2 Rifle Regiments, and 1 Cavalry Company (mounted). We are both attempting to control a couple of small farms on our map.

1. Cavalry are ridiculously easy to halt during their "charge"; they become Pinned rather easily, even from small 8-crew Skirmisher units.
2. Infantry are also easily Pinned, even at extreme range; most units can move 1 hex, be OpFired on, and become Pinned.
3. Even with LC settings, we are seeing 1 and 2 casualties at long range (5-6 hexes).


Proposed changes to address these issues:

a) To counter the "easy Pin" issue, I suggest we drastically increase the Morale ratings for all OOBs; Morale is a primary factor in determining the "threshold" for Status changes. I don't know the exact formulae, but I recall conversations with Paul Vebber, Mike Woods and other Matrix folks where it was inferred that 1/10th of Morale, rounded down, was used. I do know that the lower a unit's Morale is, the easier it is to Pin it, and vice versa. So units with higher Morale will be able to take more incoming fire without breaking, allowing formations to close with the enemy quicker.
b) Reducing the Accuracy of small-arms weapons to more realistic ranges, namely 1-2 hexes. While this won't drastically affect the ability of units to hit their targets, it will (I believe) reduce the To Hit Chance at longer ranges, thereby reducing the casualties. I cannot be sure of this, however, as I have no test data to back up the assertion; what I believe happens, though, is that the game reduces the Base Chance To Hit in the hexes beyond the Accuracy range by some as-yet-unknown algorithm, resulting in a To Hit chance of 2% at maximum range. So, if the Accuracy range is reduced, the fall-off hexes will have worse To Hit chances for more of a weapon's range band.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:38 pm 
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The mech we had tested In NA with had a 75 moral base. We were able to rally troops almost too easily for
that theater but it may be good enough for our needs here. We can try it and see if that is enough. I will
dump the mech we have now and look at the numbers in it and see what we have and suggest new numbers
based on that info. Once we pick a new set of numbers I can give you a new mech rather quickly.

On the subject of range and hitting we can go to a range of 4 or 5 max on all units except the sharp shooters
and if necessary adjust the hitting to get the numbers we want to see rather then mess with all the range and
accuracy numbers on a case by case basis. IF we don't see the requisite number of dead guys we can lower the
inf toughness a notch to 134 and see if that brings it back up.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:13 pm 
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This is the current moral numbers we have


Attachments:
Current Moral Numbers.doc [17 KiB]
Downloaded 18 times

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:30 am 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
I ran a quick test with two versions of the 1861 Rifle .58 and did some shootin' on the range; here are the preliminary results:

1. Reducing the Accuracy rating does drop the Chance To Hit at ranges beyond the Accuracy limit; not a lot, but enough to make a difference.
2. Crews can be up to 255 men; in a test with units at 100 Crew, their firepower was significantly greater than that of the 30-man units we are using.

The Combat Log
WEAPONS TEST
combat.txt logging 1

RIFLES WITH BASE STATS
Rifles-base firing at Riflemen, range 6 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 2 Percent
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-base, range 6 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 2 Percent
Rifles-base firing at Riflemen, range 5 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 7 Percent
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-base, range 5 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 4 Percent
Rifles-base firing at Riflemen, range 4 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 11 Percent
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-base, range 4 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 9 Percent
Rifles-base firing at Riflemen, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 36 Percent
2 casualties (2)
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-base, range 3 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 21 Percent
Sgt Tatlin, reduces suppression

RIFLES WITH LOW ACCURACY (reduced to 1 hex)
Rifles-low ACC firing at Riflemen, range 6 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 2 Percent
1 casualty (1)
Rifles-low ACC firing at Riflemen, range 5 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 4 Percent
Rifles-low ACC firing at Riflemen, range 4 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
Rifles-low ACC firing at Riflemen, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 11 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-low ACC, range 3 hexes, ~using 1842 Musket .69~Hit Chance 2 Percent
Sgt Gladkov, reduces suppression

RIFLES WITH HIGH CREW (100 Crew)
Rifles-high crw firing at Riflemen, range 6 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 2 Percent
3 casualties (3)
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-high crw, range 6 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 2 Percent
Rifles-high crw firing at Riflemen, range 5 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 6 Percent
2 casualties (2)
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-high crw, range 5 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 4 Percent
Rifles-high crw firing at Riflemen, range 4 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 8 Percent
4 casualties (4)
OPFIRE__Riflemen firing at Rifles-high crw, range 4 hexes, ~using H.C.Lamb Rifle~Hit Chance 8 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles-high crw firing at Riflemen, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 38 Percent
Riflemen DESTROYED **** (this was a 20-man unit, untouched before this)

END TEST

Some things to note in this:
a) Compare the To Hit chances of the Base units (2-7-11-36 at 6-5-4-3 hexes) with those of the Low Accuracy units (2-4-8-11 at 6-5-4-3 hexes). The casualty rate isn't affected (in this small sample, at least), but it occurs at different ranges. The 6-hex casualty could be explained as a "lucky" hit; further specialized testing may be necessary to confirm. But it does appear that reducing the Accuracy will reduce the long-range casualties.
b) The high casualty rate in the High Crew portion is due to the combination of the increased number of weapons being fired + the HE Kill rating of '2' for that weapon; with higher crews comes a better chance of more hits, even with fairly low To Hit chances. I believe this is because during the resolution portion, once the number of crew firing is determined, each of these is given a "dice roll" and checked against the To Hit chance. So if 30 rolls are made at 2%, statistically speaking you will see 1 or 2 "hits"; but if 100 rolls are made at the same chance, you will see more. And as the last fire event shows, a unit can be destroyed in one fire, if the To Hit chance is high enough. Which makes me ask the question, are the HE Kill numbers for these weapons too high? Perhaps they should all be "1", especially if we decide to use the 1 Crew = 1 Man scale for units. This, combined with a reduction in the Accuracy, and even possibly the ranges of the weapons, should bring our "combat zone" down to the 1-3 hex range, not counting artillery.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:02 pm 
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One thing we don't want is 20 men units getting vaporized in one turn. Unless they asked for it
by doing one of those things that is covered under they died because they were stupid clause.

But I worry about making the units in the 100+ man range due to stacking and op fires. If a player
stacks units in a hex it becomes near impossible to approach that hex unless you can pour in some
serious suppression first to keep the op fires from taking out your own units. This was a favored
tactic to take out the larger Japanese squads using the standard squads the Brits had when playing
those nations. If you stack up a few of these big units we are going to see the same thing and with
out the support weapons avialble to you to add in that suppression we have allowed players to make
there own fortress hexes by virtue of stacking those very large units. Tied in with better Moral this is
going to turn into a mess really fast. One other reason for not liking the large units is that we are
going to see them scatter when they are are still rather large. A 40 - 50 man units that goes to
dispersed on the next hit is not something that will be appealing to someone trying to hold a line.
The only way around that is to use the National Characteristics of the Japanese and USMC and that
means a lot of shuffling of the current oobs and added problems latter with AI Banzai charges and
ammo reloading rates. Which is just not worth it.



We can add rules but rules are best reserved for use when there is no other way. The fewer rules in
use the better for everyone.

As much as I hate to say this I think we are going to find that using these very large units is going to
really alter the way the game functions and we are going to find in the end that the way the game
handles them is not favorable to the end results we are looking to get.

If we go with the big units we will need to seriously reduce or remove op fires to the point the game
will be become a game of Civil War Chess. (which might actually be a cool game too) But not one
that we are looking for.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
Now, before you go all negative on this, consider that we haven't actually tested these things to see how they will work out. I don't believe the large unit will be a problem; we will have to see where the dispersal level is. And Morale isn't going to be a huge issue, since it mostly affects Rallying and Suppression...and the real problem with advancing under fire is that this game was designed for modern 20th Century warfare, where MGs and rapid fire weapons made the battlefield extremely deadly for men walking across open ground. What we are trying to replicate is the 19th Century warfare where weapons were slow firing, and short ranged, and units lined up and marched towards each other. We need to change the way Suppression is generated and/or the way it affects units.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Do what ever you need to do to get what you need from this. I am just telling you what I foresee
happening with the units and what the effects will be. Make some test units and we can find out
how they work and what we need to do to find a way around how the game is going to treat them.

I just see 100 men units dispersing at the 50% to 60% mark and folding a defense line in a matter of a turn
or two. With the ranges being very short to break into a good defense line your going to have to pick only
1 or 2 units and target them to the point they fold. Then peel the line back from there.

What I am saying is we are going to see 4 to 5 steps in a units survival and then it will disperse no matter how
many men are still in the unit. Adding more men to the unit is only going to increase the fire power of the unit
and not the staying power of it. This is what I think we will see happen. I would be happy to see it proven or
dis proven either way. Then we will know for sure.

I am aware of the type of combat and weapons we are trying to simulate. Tell it to the games engine. :razz:
we have to consider the effects of suppression on not only 2nd line units but the Elite units too so it has to be
in that swing range were units can still break and rally but not stand and rally over and over with out reguard to
the quality of the units. We also have the Arty to consider when we do this. The Guns can not be the only
means of adding on a lot of suppression. Not all the battles will have guns. I went through this all once before
to try and get a feel for the this and we have not even started on the Exp of the units for the mech file yet.
do you want to address both of those items before we start trying to fine turn the units for effects and feel
of the combat.

At 85% moral we were seeing units that could rally all day long at will no matter how much suppression was
piled on them. So I suggest we start at 80 and see how they work from there. We also have the rout rally
setting we can tinker with to get steps in total force moral.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:22 pm 
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Here is the current EXP Numbers we have

These need to be adjusted


Attachments:
Current Exp Numbers.doc [17 KiB]
Downloaded 20 times

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:03 am 
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After thinking a bit about the use of dates for this and the Exp/ Moral stuff
for this I have an Idea that is worth looking at from at least the stand point
of testing.

We have troops available from 41 to 45 so we have at least 5 different years
worth of numbers we can use. What I propose is since the dates are not going
to reflect the actual dates what if we set up a progression of numbers with them
increasing with each year For example 41 will have a base set of numbers in the
70 Exp and 70 Moral and 42 will be 75 and 75 and 43 will be 80 and 80 and so on
so that by setting the year you adjust the exp and moral settings for the whole
force. By using the same force selection for a few battles you can have results
that are going to be easier to compare for effects

This will allow us to test several sets of numbers with out a new file being made
each time we want to adjust them. Once we find a setting that is close to what
we want I can make a new set with other numbers if we only want to focus in on
one of the settings.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:44 am 
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When I open the morale and exp doc files, I just get the top two lines, the rest of the docs are blank.

I like this idea:
Quote:
... 5 different years worth of numbers ... By using the same force selection for a few battles
you can have results that are going to be easier to compare for effects ...


We need to see if the game holds to the below quote (manual p.108) in all cases, i.e., will a 100-man
unit begin dispersal checks at the 40-man level? It shouldn't happen at the 50% to 60% mark, but 40%
would still be a bit high.

Quote:
Crew – the number of men in the unit at start. When the unit gets down to 40 percent of
this number, it starts checking to see if it disbands or disperses.


Generally, I like this idea because we can still have fire at longer ranges available to us but it should
be basically a waste of ammunition as far as trying to inflict casualties. The downside is that it will
allow inflicting combat friction on charging cavalry at 300-400 yards, thus nearly negating a charge.
Quote:
RIFLES WITH LOW ACCURACY (reduced to 1 hex)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:05 pm 
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I made both of those files using open office and pasting a clip from the spreadsheet
into a text document. I have to assume that MS write can't display the pictures
of the spreadsheet. Oh well no big deal since I posted a new Mech file in the thread
with the mod files after a chat last night. It should allow us to find the right range
for the rally level we need with a minimum of work to do it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
Ok, I ran some better tests, using built scenarios and a modified Indian Tribe OOB. I'll post the combat logs, as well as screenshots, below. I'll also attach the files for the scenarios and OOB. First, some notes on the OOB and what is in it:

1. Using the as-yet-unused Indian Tribe OOB, I added 3 weapons for test purposes
  • A base weapon, 1861 Rifle .58, with the same stats as in the Mod
  • A Low Accuracy version of the same weapon, with Accuracy reduced from 3 hexes to 1 hex
  • A Low Accuracy/Low HE Kill version, with Accuracy at 1 hex and HE Kill down from 2 to 1
2. There are 2 units with 30 men carrying the Base or LowACC weapon, and 3 units with 100 men carrying one of the 3 weapons
3. The formations are made up of a Command unit (with no weapons) and 4 Rifles units

For the tests, I built a shooting range map and deployed 3 formations on each side, from this same OOB. The following conditions were in effect:
  1. LC Settings from North Africa Mod
  2. All units have 70 Experience and 70 Morale
  3. All Leaders have 70 Rally and 70 Inf Command
  4. Range for all combat is 3 hexes
  5. All units remain stationary (unless retreating) in open terrain
  6. Rally attempts were made continuously until failure
  7. Combat Logging was in effect
  8. Only 1 Round of combat per side was run
  9. Player 1 units are named Rifles 1 through Rifles 12; Player 2 units are named Rifles A through Rifles L


Now for the logs...first up, Test 1

Quote:
TEST 1, HIGH CREW, BASE WEAPON
BOTH SIDES USING SAME OOB AND UNITS
ALL STATS SET TO 70 (EXP, MOR, RALLY, INF COMMAND)
ALL UNITS 100 MEN
BASE WEAPON w/ ACCURACY AT 3 HEXES, HE KILL AT 2
ALL UNITS STATIONARY, ADVANCE STANCE, NO TERRAIN

(PLAYER 1 SIDE FIRING)

combat.txt logging 1
Rifles 1 firing at Rifles A, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
23 casualties (23)
Rifles 2 firing at Rifles B, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
22 casualties (22)
Rifles 3 firing at Rifles C, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 28 Percent
Rifles C DESTROYED ****
Rifles 4 firing at Rifles D, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 28 Percent
29 casualties (29)
Rifles 5 firing at Rifles E, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 28 Percent
13 casualties (13)
Rifles 6 firing at Rifles F, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
99 casualties (99)
Rifles F PULLING BACK !!!
Rifles F Survivors disperse !!!
Rifles 7 firing at Rifles G, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
15 casualties (15)
Rifles 8 firing at Rifles H, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 66 Percent
Rifles H DESTROYED ****
Rifles 9 firing at Rifles I, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 28 Percent
39 casualties (39)
Rifles 10 firing at Rifles J, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
70 casualties (70)
Rifles J PULLING BACK !!!
Rifles J Survivors disperse !!!
Rifles 11 firing at Rifles K, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 44 Percent
86 casualties (86)
Rifles K PULLING BACK !!!
Rifles K Survivors disperse !!!
Rifles 12 firing at Rifles L, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58~Hit Chance 28 Percent
80 casualties (80)
Rifles L PULLING BACK !!!
Rifles L Survivors disperse !!!

(NO PLAYER 2 SIDE FIRING)


As can be seen, with the greater Accuracy bonus (base 50% To Hit in each of 3 hexes), the lethality of the larger unit is much too destructive. And keep in mind that LC Settings are being used, with Infantry Toughness at 150%. Imagine what the results would be at game-normal 100%.

Next up, Test 2

Quote:
TEST 2, HIGH CREW, LOW ACCURACY
BOTH SIDES USING SAME OOB AND UNITS
ALL STATS SET TO 70 (EXP, MOR, RALLY, INF COMMAND)
ALL UNITS 100 MEN
LOW ACCURACY WEAPON w/ACCURACY AT 1 HEX, HE KILL AT 2
ALL UNITS STATIONARY, ADVANCE STANCE, NO TERRAIN

(PLAYER 1 SIDE FIRING)

combat.txt logging 1
Rifles 1 firing at Rifles A, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 20 Percent
6 casualties (6)
OPFIRE Rifles A firing at Rifles 1, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 5 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 2 firing at Rifles B, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
9 casualties (9)
OPFIRE Rifles B firing at Rifles 2, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 3 Percent
Rifles 3 firing at Rifles C, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 20 Percent
18 casualties (18)

Rifles 4 firing at Rifles D, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
4 casualties (4)
OPFIRE Rifles D firing at Rifles 4, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 7 Percent
2 casualties (2)

Rifles 5 firing at Rifles E, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
3 casualties (3)
OPFIRE Rifles E firing at Rifles 5, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 5 Percent
2 casualties (2)

Rifles 6 firing at Rifles F, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
4 casualties (4)
OPFIRE Rifles F firing at Rifles 6, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 5 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 7 firing at Rifles G, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
7 casualties (7)
Rifles 8 firing at Rifles H, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
4 casualties (4)
OPFIRE Rifles H firing at Rifles 8, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 5 Percent
Rifles 9 firing at Rifles I, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
1 casualty (1)

OPFIRE Rifles I firing at Rifles 9, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
10 casualties (10)

Rifles 10 firing at Rifles J, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
3 casualties (3)
OPFIRE Rifles J firing at Rifles 10, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 6 Percent
6 casualties (6)

Rifles 11 firing at Rifles K, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
2 casualties (2)
OPFIRE Rifles K firing at Rifles 11, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 7 Percent
8 casualties (8)

Rifles 12 firing at Rifles L, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 20 Percent
3 casualties (3)
OPFIRE Rifles L firing at Rifles 12, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 6 Percent
3 casualties (3)


(PLAYER 2 SIDE FIRING)

Sgt Ilyuchin, reduces suppression
Sgt Ilyuchin, reduces suppression
Sgt Ilyuchin, reduces suppression
Sgt Ilyuchin, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Vorobiev, reduces suppression
Sgt Kulik, reduces suppression
Sgt Kulik, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Vorobiev, Rally Attempt Fails
Sgt Lyutiy, reduces suppression
Sgt Lyutiy, reduces suppression
Sgt Lyutiy, reduces suppression
Sgt Lyutiy, reduces suppression
Sgt Lyutiy, reduces suppression
Sgt Rubko, reduces suppression
Sgt Rubko, reduces suppression
Sgt Rubko, reduces suppression
Sgt Sorokin, reduces suppression
Sgt Sorokin, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Lucashenko, reduces suppression
Sgt Bagranyan, reduces suppression
Sgt Bagranyan, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Lucashenko, reduces suppression
Sgt Mogilny, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Lucashenko, Rally Attempt Fails
Sgt Yelayev, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Lucashenko, Unable to Attempt Rally
Sgt Chernyshevsky, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Arakcheyev, Rally Attempt Fails
Sgt Moskvin, reduces suppression
Sgt Moskvin, Rally Attempt Fails
2Lt Arakcheyev, Unable to Attempt Rally
Sgt Kulebyaka, reduces suppression
Sgt Sharipov, reduces suppression
Sgt Sharipov, reduces suppression
Sgt Sharipov, reduces suppression
Rifles A firing at Rifles 1, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
2 casualties (3)
OPFIRE Rifles 1 firing at Rifles A, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (7)

Rifles B firing at Rifles 2, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 6 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 2 firing at Rifles B, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (10)

Rifles C firing at Rifles 3, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 13 Percent
8 casualties (8)
OPFIRE Rifles 3 firing at Rifles C, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 3 Percent
1 casualty (19)

Rifles D firing at Rifles 4, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
8 casualties (10)
Rifles E firing at Rifles 5, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
6 casualties (8)
Rifles F firing at Rifles 6, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 12 Percent
37 casualties (38)
Rifles I firing at Rifles 9, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 7 Percent
5 casualties (15)
Rifles J firing at Rifles 10, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
5 casualties (11)
OPFIRE Rifles 10 firing at Rifles J, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 5 Percent
Special return op fire!
1 casualty (4)

Rifles K firing at Rifles 11, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
5 casualties (13)
Rifles L firing at Rifles 12, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 8 Percent
3 casualties (6)
OPFIRE Rifles 12 firing at Rifles L, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58*~Hit Chance 6 Percent
4 casualties (7)

Rifles G RETREATING

Rifles H RETREATING

Rifles H making SMOKE

END TEST


Compared to Test 1, this combat round seems more reasonable. Lower casualties per shot, yet still enough to cause concern. The lower Accuracy means units will still be able to close with the enemy, instead of being shredded at 150-200 yards. See pics for more data on each unit.
Image
Image
Image
Image

Finally, Test 3.

Quote:
TEST 3, HIGH CREW, LOW ACCURACY AND HE KILL
BOTH SIDES USING SAME OOB
ALL STATS SET TO 70 (EXP, MOR, RALLY, INF COMMAND)
ALL UNITS 100 MEN
LOW ACCURACY WEAPON w/ACCURACY AT 1 HEX, HE KILL AT 1
ALL UNITS STATIONARY, ADVANCE STATUS, NO TERRAIN

(PLAYER 1 SIDE FIRING)

combat.txt logging 1
Rifles 1 firing at Rifles A, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles A firing at Rifles 1, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 2 firing at Rifles B, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles B firing at Rifles 2, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 11 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 3 firing at Rifles C, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles C firing at Rifles 3, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 4 firing at Rifles D, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles D firing at Rifles 4, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles 5 firing at Rifles E, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles E firing at Rifles 5, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 12 Percent
Rifles 6 firing at Rifles F, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles F firing at Rifles 6, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 12 Percent
Rifles 7 firing at Rifles G, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 20 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles G firing at Rifles 7, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
Rifles 8 firing at Rifles H, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles H firing at Rifles 8, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
Rifles 9 firing at Rifles I, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles I firing at Rifles 9, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
Rifles 10 firing at Rifles J, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles J firing at Rifles 10, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
Rifles 11 firing at Rifles K, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles K firing at Rifles 11, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
Rifles 12 firing at Rifles L, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles L firing at Rifles 12, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 13 Percent

(PLAYER 2 SIDE FIRING)

Rifles A firing at Rifles 1, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles 1 firing at Rifles A, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles B firing at Rifles 2, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles 2 firing at Rifles B, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles C firing at Rifles 3, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles 3 firing at Rifles C, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles D firing at Rifles 4, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
OPFIRE Rifles 4 firing at Rifles D, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
1 casualty (1)

Rifles E firing at Rifles 5, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 5 firing at Rifles E, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 10 Percent
Rifles F firing at Rifles 6, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 6 firing at Rifles F, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
Rifles G firing at Rifles 7, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 7 firing at Rifles G, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 7 Percent
Rifles H firing at Rifles 8, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 8 firing at Rifles H, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 11 Percent
Rifles I firing at Rifles 9, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 9 firing at Rifles I, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 6 Percent
Rifles J firing at Rifles 10, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 9 Percent
1 casualty (1)
1 casualty (2)
OPFIRE Rifles 10 firing at Rifles J, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 6 Percent
Rifles K firing at Rifles 11, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 11 firing at Rifles K, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 6 Percent
Rifles L firing at Rifles 12, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 8 Percent
1 casualty (1)
OPFIRE Rifles 12 firing at Rifles L, range 3 hexes, ~using 1861 Rifle .58+~Hit Chance 6 Percent

END TEST


I'm not sure what to make of this one...no casualty result greater than (1). Units that in the previous test were getting casualties of 5 or more now only get 1? And this is only because the HE Kill number is 1 instead of 2?? See pics for more info on units.
Image
Image
Image
Image


Attachments:
File comment: Shootin' Tests files
SPCW Shootin Tests.zip [38.97 KiB]
Downloaded 17 times

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:38 am 
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Posts: 464
Location: Playing In the Sandbox
Some tests I just ran made scenario 3 proof that Inf Toughness is applied after all the rest of the math is done
Altering that setting had effects but not within the range we needed. Its only value was to proof the Inf toughness
setting.

Scenario 2 showed me the closest thing to what I think we are looking for. When I had the setting tweaked to
176 inf toughness and 90 hitting. Causalities were in the right range and rally was going to be a big factor in
a units ability to keep shooting once op fired on. This means we may want to keep op fires low rather then
go with higher op fires. We can raise the op fire settings latter when we are fine tuning the settings

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:39 am 
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Location: Combat Information Center, Sir!
I'm going to go ahead and do the Accuracy reductions; what I think will be best is:
  • Pistols set to 0, for no Accuracy bonus
  • [s]Shotguns, Carbines and Muskets set to 4, for 1 Hex bonus[/s]
  • [s]Rifled Muskets (except the Enfield model) to 8, for 2 Hex bonus[/s]
  • [s]Enfield Rifle and all Sharpshooter Rifles to 12, for 3 Hex bonus[/s]
  • [s]Henry and Spencer Repeaters to 16, for 4 hex bonus[/s]

REVISION
After thinking about this some more, I am inclined to reduce things even more. The Accuracy rating can best be described as "clamping the weapon to a shooting table, bore-sighting it, and if it can hit the target 1 out of 2 tries at each range (50m, 100m, etc.), then it is Accurate at that range and gets a 50% Base Chance To Hit." It has nothing to do with sights, predictors, or shooting skill; only the inherent weapon design and the ammunition it fires are considered for Accuracy.
That being the case, almost all of the small-arms used in the Civil War were inaccurate beyond a hundred meters or so. Thus, my new proposal for ratings is this:
  • Pistols, Shotguns and Muskets set to 0, for no bonus
  • Rifled Muskets (except the Enfield model), including Sharpshooter/Sniper versions, and Carbines set to 4, for 1 Hex bonus
  • Enfield Rifle and both Repeaters (Henry and Spencer) set to 8, for 2 Hex bonus

This should keep the deadliest combat to within 100 metres, without penalizing certain weapons too much.

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